MBOX-Line: From brong at fastmail.fm  Wed Mar 21 05:58:06 2012
To: imap-protocol@u.washington.edu
From: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri Jun  8 12:34:48 2018
Subject: [Imap-protocol] [ann] lua imap server
In-Reply-To: <CALaySJJJgSgqo+CiWEX79dzdaB7Ms3+ab3TfmgVvRA3ZLX8gxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CBFD9662-269A-4573-8EF1-E07E7BE4671C@mac.com>
	<20120319204645.GA2859@launde.brong.net>
	<E9A1A407-E02D-4FE8-82EC-B5DDC8F0EDE2@mac.com>
	<17068.1332195426.345309@puncture> <17068.1332235633.171765@puncture>
	<C6227176-73D4-455D-91D1-601384A7591E@mac.com>
	<20897.1332282025.074478@puncture>
	<C51F6872-1FC8-416A-9BEA-BEA1907ECCF1@mac.com>
	<CAC4RtVAtrYAge6zhoYZsLEiT=MncxLDi6XeEsm6keinMhFFF3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120321101517.GA31585@launde.brong.net>
	<CALaySJJJgSgqo+CiWEX79dzdaB7Ms3+ab3TfmgVvRA3ZLX8gxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332334686.12998.140661052113677.4202AE85@webmail.messagingengine.com>



On Wed, Mar 21, 2012, at 08:13 AM, Barry Leiba wrote:
> >> That most clients send a lot of NOOP commands basically speaks to most
> >> clients being inefficient users of IMAP. ?With a well written client
> >> and an active user, you might never see NOOPs, and it's seriously
> >> broken server behaviour to only update the message list when you see a
> >> NOOP.
> ...
> > And we instructors have a saying... if one person in your class makes a
> > mistake, it might be their fault - but if a lot of them get it wrong then
> > IT IS YOUR FAULT. ?You didn't cue properly. ?Fix it next time you teach
> > that track.
> >
> > Lots of clients get IMAP wrong...
> 
> You're mistaking lots of clients making inefficient use of IMAP
> because their developers took POP clients and modified them, and had
> no incentive to *make* clients that use IMAP efficiently... for those
> who "got it wrong" for some other reason.  Be careful about the
> assumptions you make.

There are a lot of clients out there speaking bad IMAP of various sorts.
You just have to read a protocol trace from just about any client and
you'll see it doing crazy things.  You can sort of deduce the model at
the other end which is causing it to do things that way...

It's not just ex-POP clients.  Though they are indeed spectacularly
ugly in their behaviour.

One reason for that is that a simple client is going to have different
codepaths for handling different commands - they'll send a FETCH and
expect to see just the results they asked for.  If they get something
unexpectedly unsolicited, then they're probably just going to drop it.

It's exactly like waving your arms in some complex pattern and wondering
why most of the class didn't figure out how you wanted them to move next,
even if you happened to drop the name of the move somewhere in the last
5 seconds of random crap you were spouting.  I've seen it done.  I've
done it myself.  The mystified look on the participants' face followed
by a combination of frustration at themselves and annoyance at you is
quite distinct.

And we get specifically warned about that in training, and told that it
is always your fault.  You didn't give them what THEY needed.  The goal
as instructor is to make the participants feel successful.  They get
that when they do something and it happens to be right.  The trick is
to say and do just the right things that they make the right move
without even thinking about it... then it's big smiles all around and
they go away happy.

> And I'm not going to get into further discussion of this: it's
> pointless and endless.

I did say it was my "other" hobby...

Bron.
-- 
  Bron Gondwana
  brong@fastmail.fm


